Curse

gasmaskman · Nov 27, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Or not making the energy gain on Energizing Finale scalable. Keep it at 1, and just make the length on it lasts change w/ attributes. And also just put Incoming! at 30s recharge.

Exodous · Nov 27, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

I don't think anybody has mentioned it yet, but spirit shackles seems like it would make a decent counter to the paragorn's leadership attribute. -5 en per attack sort of takes the wind out of the 4 adrenaline (4 attacks) shouts for energy gain.

Its been a while since I have pvped but I doubt that hex stacking has been completely invalidated in that time.

In my opinion the main problem lies not in the paragorn, but rather in maps that require defense to win. With 2 paragorns spamming defensive shouts and 2 warders I tend to doubt these builds have the ability to actually fight. Perhaps if the maps in HA rewarded offense (for example, require x kills before a team is able to win) a bit more we wouldn't have the problems with these teams geared soley towards defense.

AOD_EaSyKiLL · Nov 28, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Just for the hell of it:

Have putrid explosion and Death Nova cause AOE Deafness for XX seconds, like an explosion should.

Dalimoor_Kalkire · Nov 28, 2006, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I haven't played the Paragon myself, but have noticed its power in Hero's Ascent. I'm sure we'll be seeing a major alter in Dervish and Paragon skills soon to re-balance things out. If it's all in the sake of balancing the professions then I'm just fine with some changes.

BahamutKaiser · Nov 28, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

The sad thing here is the weakness of other classes, and lack of exsisting counter use, not the power of paragon. Many paragon skills are situational, and require additional triggers and coordination of not only their own skills, but other teammates skills.

Paragon skills are an example of how well builds should actually function, it is the classes like Elementist, Ritualist and Assassin which are below par, and cannot compete effectively in comparison to a good class. The pathetic radius of DoT spells, hell the cost and recharge time are as well, the heavy cost, low survival, and immobility of Ritualist spirits, and the infrequency of Assassin mobility skills are just some of the significant weaknesses which mar their capabilities.

Beyond that, the only other reason shouts are so effective is because people do not recognize all the counters available and utilize them well. The value of adrenaline denial has gone up with the dual opportunity to disable Paragons and Warrior, the use of energy denial and sabatoge can cripple skill use, blackouts and disabling skills can debilitate key skills in a paragons selection.

There are 2 skills to totaly block shouts, Well of Silence, and vocal minority. Also, there are 2 skills which punish shouts, Ulcerous Lungs, and Roaring Winds. Beyond that, high defensive boosts do not block degen, a primary reason why powerful skills like Searing Flames belong in the game. Then you add on all the other adrenaline, energy, interrupt and disabling skills in the game, as well as complete shutdowns like blackout and mass knockdown, and there is not problem at all except in your ability to utilize the proper counters.

Effective skills are what make playing each class fun, trying to nerf them only creates a cycle of nerfing which is required as each powerful counter to those spells and other effective builds have to be countered in return to keep everything weak. If there are a few classes which do not provide the neccessary power to compete with the standard of classes, than there is an obvious lack and weakness of skills which would be powerful enough to counteract them, or match them.

Beyond that, high defense skills have the same counter that high defense spells have always had, massive degen. Skills like ulcerous lung, other group degen skills, and fast recast degen spells and condition spreading skills all contribute to fast degen on a group which punishes shout based parties who stick together and have high defense.

Even more so, Paragon has the least healing potency between the 3 support classes, including monk and ritualist. It is no wonder Paragon has the most impressive defensive skills when he lacks any form of continous healing output. His best heals provide general infrequent support to a group, or infrequent healing to one allie. Paragon excells in providing offensive and defensive support, and almost no healing support, which means an actual healer is still required, and that he is not an end all survival solution.

There are a vasad of counters to Paragon, just because the game evolves with the use of new classes and skills does not mean that they are too strong, your once effective and useful builds do not apply to the revolution in gameplay, and must compensate and evolve as well to meet the new challenges in PvP.

As for severly lacking and deficient builds, these are not comparisons of how effective another build can afford to be, the fact that they are so deficient based on the infrequency and immobility of their skills, and the unacceptable costs to go with them only precludeds the obvious fact that they should be adjusted to meet expectations. As the game consistantly evolves with new classes and techniques, exsisting classes need more than new skills, their functions need to be redeveloped to meet already higher standards of output.

I think we can all agree that many people were disappointed with factions, whether it was you or not. The fact that Factions classes didn't meet the efficiency of core classes, and Nightfall classes did, doesn't make Nightfall classes broken, Factions classes still arn't good enough, and in light of legitimate options that provide alternatives, it becomes painstakingly clear.

Paragon is a class done right, anything imbalance between Paragon and other classes should be remedied by doing those other classes right too, and meet the standard of acceptance and appreciation that we demand from a profession instead of breaking enjoyable opportunities because some players have a taste for the mundain.

djmook · Nov 28, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

/notsigned

too many people complain when things get hard. leave the classes alone. if anything just add more skills to balance out the the percieved imbalance.

every time you reduce the power of skills and classes you reduce the enjoyment factor for people in PvE. PvP is not the only part of the game, and to many it is not the most important part either.

chicks boy · Nov 28, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

They shouldn't be nerfed lol. You sound too serius, they are good buffer for team but they sucked at 1 on 1. I see a lot of P/W on alliances battle using Incoming and Watchyourself Spamming but i killed them less than 10 seconds with assassin. See? they are balanced. Like lilnate said dont cry lol.

Lord Oranos · Nov 28, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

The sad thing here is the weakness of other classes, and lack of exsisting counter use, not the power of paragon. Many paragon skills are situational, and require additional triggers and coordination of not only their own skills, but other teammates skills.

Paragon skills are an example of how well builds should actually function, it is the classes like Elementist, Ritualist and Assassin which are below par, and cannot compete effectively in comparison to a good class. The pathetic radius of DoT spells, hell the cost and recharge time are as well, the heavy cost, low survival, and immobility of Ritualist spirits, and the infrequency of Assassin mobility skills are just some of the significant weaknesses which mar their capabilities.

Beyond that, the only other reason shouts are so effective is because people do not recognize all the counters available and utilize them well. The value of adrenaline denial has gone up with the dual opportunity to disable Paragons and Warrior, the use of energy denial and sabatoge can cripple skill use, blackouts and disabling skills can debilitate key skills in a paragons selection.

There are 2 skills to totaly block shouts, Well of Silence, and vocal minority. Also, there are 2 skills which punish shouts, Ulcerous Lungs, and Roaring Winds. Beyond that, high defensive boosts do not block degen, a primary reason why powerful skills like Searing Flames belong in the game. Then you add on all the other adrenaline, energy, interrupt and disabling skills in the game, as well as complete shutdowns like blackout and mass knockdown, and there is not problem at all except in your ability to utilize the proper counters.

Effective skills are what make playing each class fun, trying to nerf them only creates a cycle of nerfing which is required as each powerful counter to those spells and other effective builds have to be countered in return to keep everything weak. If there are a few classes which do not provide the neccessary power to compete with the standard of classes, than there is an obvious lack and weakness of skills which would be powerful enough to counteract them, or match them.

Beyond that, high defense skills have the same counter that high defense spells have always had, massive degen. Skills like ulcerous lung, other group degen skills, and fast recast degen spells and condition spreading skills all contribute to fast degen on a group which punishes shout based parties who stick together and have high defense.

Even more so, Paragon has the least healing potency between the 3 support classes, including monk and ritualist. It is no wonder Paragon has the most impressive defensive skills when he lacks any form of continous healing output. His best heals provide general infrequent support to a group, or infrequent healing to one allie. Paragon excells in providing offensive and defensive support, and almost no healing support, which means an actual healer is still required, and that he is not an end all survival solution.

There are a vasad of counters to Paragon, just because the game evolves with the use of new classes and skills does not mean that they are too strong, your once effective and useful builds do not apply to the revolution in gameplay, and must compensate and evolve as well to meet the new challenges in PvP.

As for severly lacking and deficient builds, these are not comparisons of how effective another build can afford to be, the fact that they are so deficient based on the infrequency and immobility of their skills, and the unacceptable costs to go with them only precludeds the obvious fact that they should be adjusted to meet expectations. As the game consistantly evolves with new classes and techniques, exsisting classes need more than new skills, their functions need to be redeveloped to meet already higher standards of output.

I think we can all agree that many people were disappointed with factions, whether it was you or not. The fact that Factions classes didn't meet the efficiency of core classes, and Nightfall classes did, doesn't make Nightfall classes broken, Factions classes still arn't good enough, and in light of legitimate options that provide alternatives, it becomes painstakingly clear.

Paragon is a class done right, anything imbalance between Paragon and other classes should be remedied by doing those other classes right too, and meet the standard of acceptance and appreciation that we demand from a profession instead of breaking enjoyable opportunities because some players have a taste for the mundain.

Ok, I have no idea what you mean with Assassins and Elementalists, both have a place in competitive matches, Ritualists still havnt found a solid place yet though. And that degen is alittle hard to put into use when the Paragon is constantly feeding the monk energy through shouts(Im talking about Energizing Finale).

Now, honestly I dont know how you call an Assassin a broken class now, it took them awhile to fine tune, but they can be a serious threat if left unchecked. To be honest, I was dissapointed with the Ritualist, its like the Ranger of spellcasters... fun to play with, but I doubt Im really going to play mine as much as I used to.

Rurik Jangeer · Nov 28, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Finally the idea is starting to catch on. I played a Rit religiously at the start of factions, I LOVED my spirit spammer. I agree, they were overpowered. When the nerf came I, like many, dropped the class like a rock. I really miss playing the rit lord, but it's just not as fun anymore. That's what I'm afraid will happen to the Paragons. The Paragon took the Rits place in my eyes, I LOVE the class! Instead of nerfing it, please just make more counters. As I said in a previous post, why limit the content of PvP rather than improving it?

Thallandor · Nov 28, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

The sad thing here is the weakness of other classes, and lack of exsisting counter use, not the power of paragon. Many paragon skills are situational, and require additional triggers and coordination of not only their own skills, but other teammates skills.

I agree and ask why then perhaps the weakness of other classes exist? Due to threads like this that exist in the past where bunch of PvP QQers get their lot to make nerf threads all over forums. And instead of finding solutions, they and Anet choose the Lazy way and start nerfing classes. In the end we just end up with a bunch of dumb downed classes with dumbed downed skills, making playing GW feel like participating in the special Olympics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by djmook

/notsigned

too many people complain when things get hard. leave the classes alone. if anything just add more skills to balance out the the percieved imbalance.

every time you reduce the power of skills and classes you reduce the enjoyment factor for people in PvE. PvP is not the only part of the game, and to many it is not the most important part either.

Apprently the enjoyment factor of the game for those in PvE is moot for PvPers who only care about themselves and that the world evolve around them. This thread is perfect proof of this.
__________________________________
Just say NO to Nerfism

Xpl0iter · Nov 28, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

This, still doesn't change the fact that EF needs a nerf. It's a retarded skill.

Reine Stormshroud · Nov 28, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

I agree with some things about the paragon should be nerfed. I play a paragon myself.. and well some of the major things should be nerfed. Incoming I would suggest maybe increasing the recharge time just a bit.. when it comes to Energizing Finale, definitely increasing both recharge time and energy cost. That skill is just too overpowered. Angelic Bond, ehh, well.. I do like this skill, and I understand that it is a bit overpowered. I say keep energy cost where it is and maybe increase the recharge time. 10 seconds max.

But other than that, the paragon counters are somewhat plentiful and I think that we should leave things pretty much where it's at for now.

Calen The Civl · Nov 28, 2006, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Isn't it a bit soon to be calling for a nerf? Paragons are a new class so of course pvp balance will be a bit off for a while until everyone adapts.

From the little I know about paragons, they can be countered through adrenaline and energy denial. Weaken Armor also comes to mind if a team wants to spike a paragon. Team work and creativity is always better than calling for nerfs.

I am against nerfing in every way. Skills should not be reduced unless they are extremely ridiculously overpowered. Nerfing because a community complains a little is uncalled for in most cases. Instead, they should just release a few counter skills to balance the concern. As it stands, nerfing something for the pvp community tends to negatively effect the pve community and therefore should be avoided.

Shinto Sharingan · Nov 28, 2006, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Uhhh....as for no counters...
Hello!? Mesmers can totally kill adrenaline and energy and shut down a paragon in no time.

MMSDome · Nov 28, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

/not signed

all classes have strengths, you cant take all of the Paragons away.

Xpl0iter · Nov 28, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

As i said above, EF still needs nerfing.

I am confused though, how was e-denile taking place with shouts through a mesmer? adreline killing is a hex, as mentioned above, divert hex removal is for one to cure the issue for paragon.

Qual · Nov 28, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Paragons strongly, strongly, need a nerf. Currently, they are making Heroes' Ascent [more of] a joke, and are slowing GvG to a halt. Paragons make the old Ritual Lords appear to be a joke.

The best examples of this are two Paragon elites: [skill=text]"Incoming!"[/skill] and [skill=text]Angelic Bond[/skill]. "Incoming!" is designed to be an anti-spike skill. However, "Incoming" may have too much synergy, considering that many other Paragon skills can greatly fortify the party already. "Incoming" needs a duration nerf and a recharge nerf, so that it's use primarily for spikes only, and not for general protection. Angelic Bond is basically the same as Incoming, except it works on NPCs as well, such as the Guild Lord and Ghostly Hero, making them near indestructable as well. And unlike Life Bond, you can't easily kill the Bonder: That "Bonder" has an upwards of 96 AL. Angelic Bond needs to be less spammable: a 10e casting cost and a 10 second recharge should do it.

Now, for a few other problems:

Low Adrenal Shouts: [skill=text]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill] and [skill=text]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] can be spammed very constantly, giving the Paragon near unlimited Energy. I like the mechanic, but it's a tad abuseable. Upping both to 6 adrenaline should make both of those more reasonable. (and probably a recharge of 10ish seconds on "Watch Yourself!")

Finales: [skill=text]Energizing Finale[/skill] is famous for granting unlimited Energy. That's plainly unbalanced. The other 2 finales suffer from the same abuse. increasing the casting cost of the Finales to 10e (and increasing the recharge of Energizing Finale to 10 seconds, to keep in line witht he other 2 finales) should be quite fitting: Energy is the Paragon's biggest drawback: It's the cure to all its problems.

No Counters: Ritual Lords could be interrupted to hell. Paragons can't. There's only one skill: [skill=text]Vocal Minority[/skill]. But it's still a hex, and it's easily removed, especially since every damn team is running a Divert Hexes. Decreasing the recharge of Vocal Minority to 5 seconds can alleve the Hex Removal, but it's not a permanent fix.

What do you think? Do Paragons need a huge nerf?

No, I think you needs a huge nerf. There are anti paragons skills out there, just use them.

Zinger314 · Nov 28, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinto Sharingan

Uhhh....as for no counters...
Hello!? Mesmers can totally kill adrenaline and energy and shut down a paragon in no time.

I think it needs to be a requirement in the Sardelac Sanitatium that people need to read the thread completely before they post, so that they don't raise arguments that were already shut down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

No, I think you needs a huge nerf. There are anti paragons skills out there, just use them.

Did you just randomly click this topic, didn't bother to read what I posted, and post unecessary crap?

Qual · Nov 28, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

I used 20min to read every post in this thread. And I agree on many of them. You don't think about PvE players do you? And paragon isn't a problem in GvG(yet). So you crying about nerfing can very well hurt the game for some of us. Think about the responsibility you have when making a "nerf" thread

Not signed

Zinger314 · Nov 28, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

I used 40min to read every post in this thread. And I agree on many of them. You don't think about PvE players do you? And paragon isn't a problem in GvG(yet). So you crying about nerfing can very well hurt the game for some of us. Think about the responsibility you have when making a "nerf" thread

So your response is that Paragons shouldn't be nerfed is because it would affect them in PvE. Right. That's very persuasive. Do you have any tangible arguments against Paragon nerfing?

You do realize that Guild Wars is both a PvE and a PvP game?

Also, I do use a Paragon on my Hero Squad in PvE. The only skills he uses which I mentioned in the OP are Watch Yourself and GTFE (only for damage aid/protection, the energy is unneeded). I don't use Incoming or Energizing Finale. And I've completed almost every Master quest. If you need either of those skills as a crutch, you truly suck at PvE.

Guild Wars is an evolving game. Adapt.